The title of my post is the exact text of what I want to say to my fellow Christians who embrace a post-modern view on their personal beliefs in Christ.
Fellow Springfield blogger (and my most recent interviewee on Here’s What’s Brewin’) Jason Wert posted on his blog about a visit he took to the Front Porch, an outreach of a Springfield church called The Core that, at least from my visits there, exhibited a brand of postmodern Christianity that simply did not sit well with me as a fellow believer in Christ.
Having grown up in a Pentecostal church, I’m not used to people openly questioning conventional Christianity, the Bible or the basis of truth itself, but it seemed the pendulum swung too far the other direction in this case…I got a distinct feeling that while what this church was doing was good in its intent, it could actually cause some harm by what seemed to me to be wavering on important topics such as truth, sin, etc. The Core is noted among many people my age for openly holding discussion groups in which people can openly and without reprisal question the Bible, moral absolutes and the very basis of Christianity itself. While questioning is not bad in and of itself, discussing the issues without providing solid faith-based answers (yes that sounds like an oxymoron but it is possible) does more harm than good.
I have been in churches in which the feeling was too rigid, sort of like a “1984″-type setting where everyone is force fed the same thing and acts a certain way — and I have also been to churches and prayer groups where it is a bit too freewheeling and everyone carries their own belief of what God is and who he does (oh, but we’re all still worshipping the same God, right?).
I guess I have a really big question about postmodern Christianity. Why can’t the people who have embraced postmodernism simply crack open their Bible, pray to God for understanding, ask their fellow Christian believers and leadership for help in understanding instead of debating it, and simply grow some faith?
Now I will be the first to admit that I cannot paint with a broad brush, and I certainly am not one to question people’s spiritual walk with Christ. After all, Jesus said Himself to his disciples, “if they’re for me, they’re not against me.” But my question with postmodern Christianity is, how can you be fully for God if you don’t exhibit some concept of faith in your life rather than trying to find a concrete answer to everything?
The post-modern Christian will always be frustrated, because there are answers to some spiritual issues that simply cannot be answered here on earth. I can attest to this because I held a VERY postmodern view for a long time, and only since I resigned myself to simply reading the Word, praying for wisdom and guidance, and seeking guidance from those over me in the Lord, did my frustration with not finding concrete answers stop.
Honestly I think the postmodern view could serve to be a stumbling block to Christians who embrace it. By not fully embracing certain tenets such as truth, morality, etc. they are in effect not embracing the Bible that serves as a guide and an answer to their questions.
And I also believe the community of believers in Christ would be better served to stop debating Christ in and among themselves and go reach their peers and friends for Christ. Best way to do that, I’ve found, is simply be relational. Shouldn’t even have to talk about Christ to get his message across in the first place.
What say ye?
Top notch post.
Christianity is always going through changes. Why do Christians ignore most of Deuteronomy? Well, while killing your son for disobeying you may have once been the “truth,” society realized that we may have outgrown following God’s word in this case.
If the faith didn’t change itself in to what it was when you became a Christian, there’s no way you would consider Christianity.
Without questioning and the resulting change, life becomes stagnant.
I would also wager that you won’t find a pastor who believes the same thing now that she believed when she was 23.
…unless she’s 24 =)
Chuckmo–
Thanks for visiting the blog and I appreciate the input!
I would have to say I agree with you on the points that Christianity changes. Look at the progression from the old testament to the new…grace became a major factor in people’s faith — sins that in the old testament would have been punishable by death were forgiven by Jesus’ death on the cross.
I believe it is necessary to question to an extent. If we question the basic tenets of Christianity to a point where we start losing our faith and it warps our perception of God and faith as a whole, that’s where we mess up.
Ultimately I would like to refer back to the Bible…I believe it was in the book of Hebrews that contains the statement that “faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.”
What is wrong with asking questions and thinking for yourself? What is to be lost from examing your beliefs (or lack of) critically to see how they stand? We were given the ability to think critically for ourselves, even if many out there cannot or do not do so.
Are we ignoring or rejecting those gifts by following blindly? Are we doing a disservice by not using all of the tools available to us? Should we fear the individual who is willing to stand alone and ask “why” and search for an answer?
People should be able to ask questions without being looked at as though they were dissenters and trouble makers. Simply following without thinking has caused countless tragedies through time. And too many who think critically are dragged down by those who do not.
Hi Jeff, thanks for visiting and offering some input to this important issue.
I am all for critical thinking when situations warrant. The Bible tells us all to work out our own salvation (read: faith) with fear and trembling. Simply put, that verse is saying everyone’s spiritual walk is just that — their own spiritual walk, and nothing to be taken lightly.
Working out our own salvation for some may be to follow along with what they’ve been taught all their lives. They really don’t think independently in that case, and that in turn could be detrimental when a trial of their faith comes along and knocks their spiritual walk off kilter.
For those that question their faith all too much, I am reminded of the parable of the man who built his house upon the sand — the storms came and wiped his house out. Actually on second thought both scenarios I mention fit this allegory properly.
Asking why is not wrong. But questioning the very basis of Christianity, morality, and truth can lead to some disastrous consequences as everything becomes relative to the individual. Concrete ideals that should apply to all become muddled.
There needs to be a good balance of both faith and questioning convention. I believe it’s healthy to question some things and believe others. We just all in the end need to pray to God — and for each other — and help each other through this spiritual journey and bring others to Christ.
I disagree that just because one doesn’t choose the Christian faith that “[c]oncrete ideals that should apply to all become muddled.”
Do you have to be Christian to have a strong sense of what is morally right and wrong? I’m sure that isn’t what you meant because that eliminates many people of faith who are not Christians but are good people with strong moral beliefs. But how would you know that someone who doesn’t have a strong basis in faith can’t have a strong sense of moral right and wrong? You obviously have strong religious beliefs and putting yourself in this situation must be difficult.
I personally do not believe in heaven or hell. I believe in what is tangable and observalbe and repeatable. And yet I also believe that many of the moral teaching of the Bible are correct. I don’t think that force used against anyone is ever appropriate unless it is used only to stop someone who is using force against another (for example, the police using force against an armed criminal). I belive that stealing is wrong and that everyone should treat others as they would wish to be treated. I know what is right and what is wrong and I live each day trying to live up to my beliefs and expectations.
I’m not saying that you shouldn’t believe. Many people need to believe in something and for them, religion fits that need. But there are those who benefit more from asking questions and seeking the answers than they do from kneeling and praying. And good works can come from both sets of hands.
Strength comes from standing up and living your convictions and strength comes from keeping your faith. Does it take any less strength to stand up and believe in the force put forth in the Bible than it does to face each day believing only what you can prove? Does that make one person more moral than another if both lead truly moral lives? At least the person of faith has an afterlife to look forward to. The athiest who doesn’t believe in the hereafter and lives a moral life only does so for this life, not the next.
Jeff–
Definitely some good points. I am currently at work and will respond to you when I get home tonight and have some time!
Jeff, you wrote:
“Do you have to be Christian to have a strong sense of what is morally right and wrong? I’m sure that isn’t what you meant because that eliminates many people of faith who are not Christians but are good people with strong moral beliefs. But how would you know that someone who doesn’t have a strong basis in faith can’t have a strong sense of moral right and wrong? You obviously have strong religious beliefs and putting yourself in this situation must be difficult.”
Response:
No, you don’t have to be a Christian to have a strong sense of what is right and wrong. I do believe there is a human moral code that each one of us are born with. For example, we all know that stealing someone else’s property is wrong. Lying to someone is wrong. We know that simply because of the feelings these things bring on afterward.
I definitely have strong religious beliefs…as a Christian I try to believe the basic tenets of what Christ preached during His time on earth. I believe He had four major points that His life brought across:
1. Acceptance of Jesus as one’s personal Savior and patterning one’s life after His
2. Love God with all you have, and love your neighbor as yourself
3. Care for the elderly, widowed, poor and disadvantaged
4. Be an encouragement and exhorter of everyone around you
Thanks once again for the honest and uplifting exchange of opinions Jeff and once again I welcome your viewpoints even though we come from different belief systems.
Thank you for giving me a venue to discuss this. I’ve appreciated your willingness to discuss this openly, intelligently and without any negativity. It seems that we both overall believe the same things. We seem to agree on many points.
Wow, look at what I sparked!
Jeff -
Well stated!
Chris -
I think if we all sat down, we would find that we have similar morals in regard to social responsibility. In other words, I’m pretty sure we’d all agree that violence, theft, and drunk driving are all bad. I also am a big fan of points 3 & 4. However, Christians and non-Christians tend to differ on the first half of points 1 & 2 (Acceptance of Jesus as one’s personal Savior & Love God with all you have.)
So is it alright for someone to question those 2 points? If they are, in fact, Truth (with a capital T) then won’t questioning those issues ultimately lead to a more confident belief in them?
It seems to me that there’s no reason to believe them, except for the poetic beauty of the concept of Jesus as Saviour. Personally, I think the story of Jesus is inspiring and beautiful, but I haven’t seen any reason to believe that it actually happened besides the way the concept of self-sacrifice moves me emotionally. Lord of the Rings was also inspiring and beautiful, but just because I was moved by it doesn’t mean I’m going to learn wizardry. But by the same token, just because Lord of the Rings is fiction doesn’t invalidate my emotional reaction.
What I’ve gathered is that religion provides an outlet for emotional expression. And even though the cause of the emotions may or may not be real, the emotions themselves are real and they certainly are not invalidated by the validity (or lack there-of) of their inspiration. So then we’ve established a practical purpose for faith: an outlet for emotional expression.
And in my view, as long as you don’t let religious doctrine dictate every decision and understand your social responsibility to those who are different, there’s not a thing wrong with your decision to have faith in God.
And I agree with Jeff, this has been an exceptionally civil discussion given the content matter!
-Chuckmo
I haden’t actually considered your point that religion as an outlet for emotional expression. I’d say that there is also the social need for people to find and associate with a group of like-minded individuals in a safe and nurturing environment. By sharing a sense of faith, they feel welcomed and open and wanted. That sense of validation is an important part of everyone’s concept of self.
Everyone believes and holds faith in something. For some it’s God (in any of his forms; God, Allah, etc.), for others it’s science or aliens. Even the belief that there is nothing beyond requires faith that your beliefs are correct.
In some cases, the fhe fact that a person may believe that since his views are so drastically different than everyone else’s may make them feel isolated, but it’s also true that some view themselves as special because they believe differently than the majority.
Well I have to disagree with a lot of what is stated above. The Word of God is the basis of all that I believe in. And as Chris mentioned it is by faith that we accept Jesus Christ and the work he did not only on the cross but by rising from the dead. He is the only Way, Truth and Life. There is no other God and no other way to get to God the Father except through His Son, Jesus Christ.
I would have to sum my stance on the issue up by saying the only factor that separates those who do and don’t believe in Christ is faith.
For me it is unexplainable. I’m gonna revert to the Bible again — the writer of the book of Hebrews says that faith is the evidence of things hoped for, and the evidence of things unseen.
To me as just a normal human being, that verse makes no sense for the most part. I’ve heard it preached over and over and over, but the question races through my mind — “How can faith, something that is not tangible, be the evidence of something else that is not tangible?” It’s almost like trying to divide 0 into something in math, it doesn’t compute in our minds logically. In fact it is impossible.
That’s where I resign myself to stop trying to figure it out because I realize that a lot of the Bible was written in a way for us to simply believe its spiritual content (a lot of it is left up to human interpretation). But with that belief in the Word comes us praying and asking God for understanding in the Word.
For me, it’s defying human convention and trying my best to extend my belief in God beyond human reason. Personally it gives me something to shoot for, and it’s an extra motivator in helping people on this earth…and the end result is to make it to heaven.
I would like to thank all who are participating in this discussion, this is probably the best civil and thoughtful discussions I’ve had on a spiritual issue in quite some time. Everyone has done a superb job of stating their beliefs and respecting others. This is what discussion’s all about (now if only political discussions were this easy)!
I’d have to say that it isn’t faith that separates us, it’s what we put faith IN that is the difference. You believe in God and heaven while I believe in man and his ability to puzzle out the universe (a.k.a. science). I’ve taught myself to ask questions and puzzle out the “why” of any given problem.
I’ve also enjoyed this conversation. It can be difficult to find people to get into this sort of conversation, especially on the internet where anonymity tends to breed poor manners and bad attitudes.
I’ve had several political discussions like this. It’s all a matter of finding the right people to talk with.
Jeff -
You have to be careful when you say “faith” in regard to science. I would argue that science doesn’t require faith at all in that it is completely based on observable, testable phenomena. Furthermore, it’s much more pliable than religion. If a scientist finds evidence that contradicts something humanity has believed for a long time (like the Earth actually being ROUND instead of flat), then the scientific community tests the evidence at hand and disregards the prior belief.
In religion, change is not that simple, as what constitutes divine truth is mostly subjective and disagreed upon within Christianity itself. And as this post shows, questioning is only allowable to a certain degree before it is frowned upon. If I suddenly claim gravity, one of the primary foundations of physics, is totally wrong, most scientists will tell me I’m wrong/insane. However, if I can provide explicit evidence that gravity is a sham, then the community of physicists will go along with me. This can’t happen in religion.
Sybil -
Thanks for joining the conversation, but can you elaborate on WHY you believe that? Just telling me what you believe does me little good unless you can explain why you subscribe to those beliefs.
Chris -
You nailed it. What separates religion from science is faith. Rationalists like Jeff and myself base our lifestyles on trial and error, logic and reason. If you can provide a sound argument on why we should deviate from this basis in regard to religion, then I’d be happy to pick up my cross.
Chuckmo-
The faith I was refering to was the faith that we will be able to solve the complex problems of the universe given enough time and evidence. Although there also is some faith in accepting theories and hypothesese that have yet to be proven or in particles that we can’t see, only observe and confirm based on their reactions with matter or energy. I can’t see an individual pairing of hydrogen but I know that it exists because it burns or because I can view it’s spectra.
Science is more maleable than religion, yes. There are cases though where scientific principles are debated and contested and it takes a definitive collection of results before the controversy can be put to rest. There are still several theories into the cause of global warming; is it solely a man-made problem or are there natural forces at work also at work?
Sybil-
Expanding on what Chuckmo said, why do you disagree specifically? Could you expand on your points? I’m sure we’ve all heard the rhetoric but what do you personally have to say that is new to the discussion? I’d like to hear your opinion on the discussion.
If Christianity really is true, then you should have nothing to fear from questioning your beliefs. Why are you so afraid of your fellow Christians actually questioning their beliefs? You can probably even admit that most Christians were raised Christians from such a young age that they didn’t even know how to question their beliefs. So, then, if they couldn’t question their beliefs when they became a Christian, why are you telling them they still shouldn’t? You’re basically telling Christians to never think about *why* they believe what they believe. What is noble in this? If I believe that leprechauns exist, would you tell me to stop questioning whether or not this belief is true? I would hope not.
What is the difference, then? If Christianity is real, as you claim it is, then these Christians that you’re so afraid of questioning their beliefs will realize, “hey, this really is true,” and their “faith” will be even stronger. From your point of view, what’s so bad with that? Then again, if they come to realize, “hey, this is a big hoax,” then what’s the problem? Perhaps they’re one step closer to the actual truth.
Have you ever questioned what you believe in? It seems like you haven’t. At least, it seems like you haven’t given it an honest chance that maybe, just maybe, what you’ve been believing in your whole life (I’m guessing since you were really young?) just might be wrong.
Overall, this is just horrible advice, and I’m not afraid to come out and say that. I would have never taken the time to post if you would have said things like, “The Bible is the Truth,” “Christianity is the only way,” etc. etc. But what you actually said is practically a crime. Cut off all objectivity? No sir. Objectivity is essential.
Stop believing whatever you want for no reasons and grow some objectivity.
Kevin–
I never said I was scared of other people questioning their beliefs. In fact I have stated that faith and objectivity are a good mix. Such as my previous given points of there being a moral code for everyone, religious or non-religious.
Yes, I have questioned what I believe in. Yes I have wavered in and out of faith especially in my young adult years, when I was finally old enough to formulate my own decisions on my life.
In fact (and I think this could serve as a response to ChuckMo) the thing that solidified my faith in Christ was when I was in Iraq. To make a long story short, let’s just say there were two instances where me and soldiers I was traveling with should have by all means been killed or seriously injured in separate incidents, and we all walked away without a scratch. For me, that was the de facto physical evidence I needed (myself a skeptic when it comes to many spiritual things, still) that there is a God, and since then I haven’t wavered on my faith once.
I appreciate your thoughts and input Kevin.
Wow. Deep. I personally am a Christian, and believe Jesus is the only way. I have tried living without Christ before and life was empty. There was no purpose for me to live except to get drunk and party. Now that Jesus is back in my life as my Lord and Savior, I have meaning through Him. I have a purpose in my life and now know who I am.
Many would say that my path is right for me and others are able to choose a different way. Personally, I don’t agree. Jesus is the only way in life!
I personally am not religious. I have a living relationship with God in which I talk to Him and He speaks to me. He guides me and never abandons me. He was there every night I was partying, calling me to Him with love. God is not a mere set of rules or a subject to theorize on. To me, He is a living Father in whom I can trust EVERYTHING with. He knows all about me and loves me enough to watch out for me (you tend to treasure people who have your six once you join the military).
As far as questioning and trying the Bible, DO IT! Because if you go before God and honestly ask Him to prove Himself to you, He will. I can’t remember the exact scripture, but God said something along the lines of “Try me, that I may prove myself to you.” I tried God. I turned my back on Him, and He proved Himself alright! I believe once a person has a true encounter with Jesus and His love, their whole perception changes. I have had a lot of non-believer friends who have come to experience Christ in their life, and they said their whole though process on God changed at that moment. Some of them didn’t get saved, but they were changed non-the-less.
I hope that I can show Christ Jesus to others though my actions rather than words though. I can debate this matter until I am blue in the face, but no one would believe unless they saw Christ living through me. I love each and every one of you and hope that you all come to know Christ for who he truly is. And if there is one good thing I can take from this post is the fact that we live in a FREE country! We can discuss this without fear of the government killing us. And I love being free!
-Jas
I think that is the most of anything I have written in a month!
-Jas